MAPS Vol11 No2 - Stanislav Grof interviews Dr Albert Hofmann, medyczne- książki w j ang
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Stanislav Grof interviews Dr. Albert Hofmann
Esalen Institute, Big Sur, California, 1984.
Editor’s note: This remarkable dialogue from 1984 has never been published.
We’re printing it now in part to provide historical context for a new effort, in which
MAPS is participating, to restart LSD psychotherapy research in the United States. In
addition, this dialogue addresses and helps clarify the idealist view of the potential
value of psychedelics, when used properly, to help “engender ecological
sensitivity, reverence for life, and capacity for peaceful cooperation with other
people and other species,” qualities that are desperately needed in these times of
terrorism and war.
Grof:
It is a great pleasure and an honor for me this morning to welcome and introduce Dr.
Albert Hofmann, to the extent to which he needs introduction at all. As you all know, he
became world famous for his discovery of a compound that is probably the most
controversial substance ever developed by man, diethylamide of lysergic acid, or LSD-25.
When LSD made its entry into the world of science, it became an overnight sensation
because of its remarkable effects and also its unprecedented potency. It seemed to hold
tremendous promise in the research of the nature and etiology of schizophrenia, as an
extraordinary therapeutic agent, as a very unconventional tool for training of mental health
professionals, and as a source of inspiration for artists.
Dr. Hofmann’s discovery of LSD generated a powerful wave of interest in brain
chemistry and, together with the development of tranquilizers, was directly responsible for
what has been called the “golden age of psychopharmacology.” And then his prodigious
child became a “problem child”. This extraordinarily promising chapter in psychology and
psychiatry was drastically interrupted by unsupervised mass self-experimentation and the
ensuing repressive administrative, legislative, and political measures, as well as the
chromosome scare and the abuse by the military and secret police. But I firmly believe that
this chapter is far from being closed. Whether or not LSD research and therapy as such will
return into modern society, the discoveries that psychedelics made possible have profound
revolutionary implications for our understanding of the psyche, human nature, and the
nature of reality. And these new insights are here to stay as an important part of the emerging
scientific world view of the future.
Before we start this interview, I would like to add a little personal note. Dr. Hofmann’s
discovery of LSD and his work, in general, have had a profound impact on my own
professional and personal life, for which I am immensely grateful. My first LSD session in
1956, when I was a beginning psychiatrist, was a critical landmark and turning point for me
and since then my life has never been the same. So this interview gives me the opportunity
to express my deep appreciation and gratitude to Dr. Hofmann for the influence he has had
on my life.
What I would like to ask you first has something to do with the way people tend to
qualify your discovery of the psychedelic effects of LSD. It is usually referred to as a pure
accident, implying that there was nothing more involved in this entire matter than your
fortuitous intoxication. But I know from you that the history was somewhat more complex
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than that. Can you clarify
this for us?
“...the discoveries that
psychedelics made possible have
profound revolutionary
implications for our
understanding of the psyche,
human nature, and the nature of
reality.” - S.G.
time, in the 1930s, a new
ergot alkaloid had been
discovered which is
named ergometrine, or
ergonovine. It is the real
active principle of ergot.
The presence of this al-
kaloid in ergot is the rea-
son why it has been used
in obstetrics to stop uter-
ine bleeding and as an
oxytoxic. And this sub-
stance turned out to be an amide of lysergic acid.
Until the late 1930s, it had not been possible to
prepare such substances in the laboratory. I discovered a
technical procedure that made it possible and was able to
achieve partial synthesis of ergonovine; I then also used
this procedure to prepare other lysergamides. First came
the modifications of ergonovine and one of these modifi-
Hofmann:
Yes, it is true that
my discovery of LSD was a
chance discovery, but it was
the outcome of planned ex-
periments and these experi-
ments took place in the
framework of systematic
pharmaceutical, chemical
research. It could better be
described as serendipity. That means that you look for
something, you have a certain plan, and then you find
something else, different, that may nevertheless be useful.
And that is exactly what happened with LSD. I had
developed a method for the synthesis of lysergic acid
amides in the context of a systematic study, the purpose of
which was to synthesize natural ergot alkaloids. At that
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cations, methergine, a homologue of ergonovine, is today
the leading medicament in obstetrics to stop postpartum
bleeding. I also used this procedure to prepare not so close
derivatives of ergonovine, more different than
methergine. And one of these compounds was LSD-25,
lysergic acid diethylamide. The plan, the intention I had,
was to prepare an analeptic, a circulatory and breathing
stimulant.
happened. Then I considered the possibility that it might
have been the substance I had prepared. But it did not
make any sense. I knew I was very careful and my work
was very clean. And, of course, I did not taste anything.
But I was open to the fact that, maybe, some trace of
the substance had in some way passed into my body.
That, maybe, a drop of the solution had come onto my
fingertips and, when I rubbed my eyes, it got into the
conjunctival sacs. But, if this compound was the
reason for this strange experience I had, then it had to
be very, very active. That was clear from the very
beginning because I had not ingested anything. I was
puzzled and decided to conduct some experiments
to clear up this thing, to find out what was the reason
for that extraordinary condition I had experienced.
Being a cautious man, I started this experiment
with only 0.25 milligrams (the ergot alkaloids are
usually administered in milligram dosages). That is an
extremely low dose and I expected it would not have any
activity. I thought I would increase very cautiously the
quantity of LSD in subsequent experiments to see if any
of the dosages were active. It turned out that when I
ingested this quarter of a milligram, I had taken a very
strong, a very high dosage of a very, very active com-
pound. I got into a strange state of consciousness. Every-
thing in my surroundings changed - the colors, the forms,
and also the feeling of my ego had changed. It was very
strange! And I became very anxious that I had taken too
much and I asked my assistant to accompany me home.
At that time we had no car available and we went home by
bicycle.
“I got into a dreamlike condition, in
which all of my surrounding was
transforming. My experience of
reality had changed and it was rather
agreeable.” - A.H.
Grof:
Was there some indication in the early animal
experiments that LSD could be an activating agent?
Hofmann:
No, I made LSD because it is an analog of
coramine, which is diethylamide of nicotinic acid. Be-
cause of the structural relationship between LSD and the
ring of the nicotinic acid, I hoped to get an analeptic. But
our pharmacologist concluded that lysergic acid diethyla-
mide did not have any clinically interesting properties
and suggested that it be dropped out of research. That
happened in the year 1938. But all along, I had a strange
feeling that we should again test this substance on a
broader scale. Then, five years later, in 1943, I finally
decided to synthesize another sample of LSD. At the end
of the synthesis, something very strange happened. I got
into a dreamlike condition, in which all of my surround-
ing was transforming. My experience of reality had
changed and it was rather agreeable. In any case, I left the
laboratory, went home, lay down and enjoyed a nice
dreamlike state which then passed away.
Grof:
Many people who have taken LSD, particularly in
such a high dose, have a lot of respect for that ride. They
realize what it is to ride a bicycle in that kind of a
condition.
Hofmann:
During this trip home on the bicycle - it was
about four kilometers - I had the feeling that I could not
move from the spot. I was cycling, cycling, but the time
seemed to stand still. In my report afterward, I mentioned
this trip on the bicycle to show that LSD affected the
experience of time, as an example of the distortion of the
sense of time. Then the bicycle trip became a characteris-
tic aspect of the LSD discovery. As we arrived home, I was
in a very, very bad condition. It was such a strange reality,
such a strange new universe which I had entered, that I
believed I had now become insane. I asked my assistant to
Grof:
Did you immediately suspect that this was an
intoxication from the drug you were working with?
Hofmann:
I had the suspicion that it was caused by
something from the laboratory, but I believed that it
could have been caused by the solvent I had used at that
time. I had used dichlorethylene, something like chloro-
form, in the very final state of preparation. So, the next
day in the laboratory, I tried the solvent and nothing
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call the doctor. When the doctor arrived, I told him that
I was dying. I had the feeling that my body had absolutely
no feeling any more. He tested me and shook his head,
because everything was OK.
Then, my condition became worse and worse. When
I was lying on my couch, I had the feeling that I had
already died. I believed, I had a sense that I was out of my
body. It was a terrifying experience! The doctor did not
give me anything, but I drank a lot of milk, as an
unspecific detoxicant. After about six hours, the experi-
ence of the outer world started to change. I had the feeling
of coming back from a very strange land, home to our
everyday reality.
And it was a very, very happy feeling and a very
could be used in the drug scene, just for pleasure. For me
it was a deep and mystical experience and not just an
everyday pleasurable one. I never had the idea that it
could be used as a pleasure drug. And then, soon after my
experience, LSD came into the hands of psychiatrists.
The son of my boss at that time, Dr. Werner Stoll, who
was working at the Burghoeltzli Psychiatric Institute in
Zurich, conducted the initial experiments with LSD.
First, we checked it in our laboratory, because the
head of the Chemical Department, Professor Stoll, and
the head of the Pharmacology Department, Professor
Rothlin, said that what I was telling them was not
possible. They told me: “You must have made a mistake
when you measured the dosage. It is impossible that such
“I was cycling, cycling, but the time seemed to stand still.” - A.H.
beautiful experience. After some time, with my eyes
closed, I began to enjoy this wonderful play of colors and
forms, which it really was a pleasure to observe. Then I
went to sleep and the next day I was fine. I felt quite fresh,
like a newborn. It was an April day and I went out into the
garden. It had been raining during the night. I had the
feeling that I saw the earth and the beauty of nature as it
had been when it was created, at the first day of creation.
It was a beautiful experience! I was reborn, seeing nature
in quite a new light.
a low dosage could have an effect.” And Professor Rothlin
then made an experiment with two of his assistants. They
took only one fifth of what I had taken, 50 micrograms, to
check it out. And even then, they had a full-blown
experience!
Grof:
So, this was, in a nutshell, the story of the discov-
ery of LSD. And then we come to the next important
chapter of your psychedelic research, the isolation and
identification of the active principles of the magic
mushrooms of the Mazatec Indians in Mexico. How
long after the discovery of the psychedelic effects of
LSD did Gordon Wasson contact you?
Grof:
We have seen this kind of sequence, the death-
rebirth process, very regularly in psychedelic sessions.
Many people link this experience to the memory of their
biological birth. I wanted to ask you, if during the time
when it was happening, it was just an encounter with
death or if you also had the feeling that you were involved
in a biological birthing process?
Hofmann:
For the first ten years, LSD was my “wonder
child”, we had a positive reaction from everywhere in the
world. Around two thousand publications about it ap-
peared in scientific journals and everything was fine.
Then, at the beginning of the 1960s, here in the United
States, LSD became a drug of abuse. In a short time, this
wave of popular use swept the country and it became
“drug number one”. It was then used without caution
Hofmann:
No, the first phase was a very terrifying
experience, because I did not know if I would recover.
First, I had the feeling that I was insane and then I had the
feeling I was dying. But then, when I was coming back, I
had of course the feeling of rebirth.
“The reason for our success
was that we used our own
team for testing the fractions
and did not rely on animal
experiments.” - A.H.
Grof:
When did you become aware that this drug could
be of significance to psychiatry?
Hofmann:
Immediately! I knew immediately that this
drug would have importance for psychiatry! But, at that
time, I would never have believed that this substance
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and people were not prepared and informed about its
deep effects. And then all kinds of things happened,
which caused LSD to become an infamous drug. It was a
troublesome time! Telephones,
panic, and alarm! This had hap-
pened, that had happened.... it
was a breakdown. Instead of a
“wonder child”, LSD suddenly
became my “problem child”.
I saw in the newspaper a
notice that an American ama-
teur mycologist and ethnologist,
Gordon Wasson, and his wife
had discovered mushrooms
which were used in a ritual way
by the Indians. These mushrooms seemed to contain a
hallucinogen that produced an LSD-like effect. Of
course, I did not know who these ethnologists were, but I
certainly was interested in investigating these mush-
rooms. Then, I got a letter from Professor Heim, a French
mycologist from the Sorbonne in Paris. Mr. Wasson and
his wife, who had discovered this very old Mexican
mushroom cult and had published information about
the ritual use of these mushrooms, had sent him some
samples. They had asked him if he could examine the
mushrooms and make a precise botanical investigation.
Professor Heim tried to isolate the active principle
from the mushrooms, but did not succeed. Gordon
Wasson had also initiated chemical studies of the mush-
rooms in the United States, at the University of Dela-
ware, but this work had not brought any positive results
either. And so Professor Heim, who knew about the work
we had done with LSD in Basel, asked me in his letter if I
would be interested in taking on this research. So, in this
way, LSD attracted the mushrooms to come into my
laboratory.
At first, we had only 200 or 300 grams of these
mushrooms. We tested them in animals, since we had
some experience with LSD and we knew what kind of
pharmacological activity could
be expected from such psychoac-
tive principles. We did not find
anything and our pharmacolo-
gist suggested that the mush-
rooms probably were not active
at all, that they were the wrong
mushrooms, or that they had lost
their activity when they had been
dried in Paris. In any case, to clear
the problem, I decided to make a
self-experiment. I took a dosage
that was mentioned in the prescriptions in the old
chronicles - 2.4 grams of dried mushrooms - and I had a
full-blown LSD experience.
And it was very strange. I took it in the laboratory and
I had to go home, because I had again taken a dosage that
was rather high. At home, everything looked Mexican -
the rooms and surroundings - although I had never been
in Mexico before. I thought that I must have imagined all
that, because I knew that the mushrooms had come from
Mexico. For example, I had a colleague, a doctor who
supervised me for this experiment. When he checked my
blood pressure, I saw him as an Aztec. He had a German
face, but for me he became an Aztec priest and I had the
feeling he would open my chest and take out my heart. It
was really an absolutely Mexican experience!
After a few hours, I came back from the Mexican
landscape and I knew that we had not used the right tests.
The work with animals would not have taken us any-
where; we had to test the activity (of the various amounts)
in humans. And from then on, my colleagues and I tested
personally all the extracts we made from the mushrooms.
We extracted them with different solvents and used
fractionating procedures to isolate the active principles.
“We explained to Maria Sabina
that we had isolated the spirit of
the mushrooms and that it was
now in these little pills. She was
fascinated and agreed to make a
ceremony for us.”
- A.H.
Grof:
How many steps did it take you from the beginning
to the end to identify chemically the active principles?
Hofmann:
We had about five or six steps. Finally, we
ended up with a very small quantity, several milligrams of
concentrated material that was still amorphous. And we
could use it to make a paper chromatogram. It turned out
that the substance was concentrated in four phases. We
cut the paper chromatogram and four of my colleagues
“..I saw the earth and the
beauty of nature as it had
been when it was created, at
the first day of creation. It
was a beautiful experience!
I was reborn, seeing nature
in quite a new light.” - A.H.
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